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	<title>Comments on: Transition Report: Climate Solutions = Jobs</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.edf.org/greenroom/2008/11/20/transition-report-climate-solutions-jobs/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.edf.org/greenroom/2008/11/20/transition-report-climate-solutions-jobs/</link>
	<description>The blog of the Environmental Defense action community</description>
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		<title>By: fritz</title>
		<link>http://blogs.edf.org/greenroom/2008/11/20/transition-report-climate-solutions-jobs/comment-page-1/#comment-4917</link>
		<dc:creator>fritz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 13:48:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.edf.org/greenroom/2008/11/20/transition-report-climate-solutions-jobs/#comment-4917</guid>
		<description>Has anyone considered the fundamental conflict between economic growth and the environment?  Growth was a great goal when the world was &#039;large&#039; with respect to environment.  But economy has grown larger than environment, and we have reached or exceeded carrying capacity.

We need to start this conversation and develop reasonable policies to address.  For more info, see &#039;Beyond Growth&#039; by Daly, or any books by Gus Speth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Has anyone considered the fundamental conflict between economic growth and the environment?  Growth was a great goal when the world was &#039;large&#039; with respect to environment.  But economy has grown larger than environment, and we have reached or exceeded carrying capacity.</p>
<p>We need to start this conversation and develop reasonable policies to address.  For more info, see &#039;Beyond Growth&#039; by Daly, or any books by Gus Speth.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://blogs.edf.org/greenroom/2008/11/20/transition-report-climate-solutions-jobs/comment-page-1/#comment-4897</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 00:02:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.edf.org/greenroom/2008/11/20/transition-report-climate-solutions-jobs/#comment-4897</guid>
		<description>Interesting!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting!</p>
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		<title>By: Momoh K. Sei</title>
		<link>http://blogs.edf.org/greenroom/2008/11/20/transition-report-climate-solutions-jobs/comment-page-1/#comment-4867</link>
		<dc:creator>Momoh K. Sei</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 08:23:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.edf.org/greenroom/2008/11/20/transition-report-climate-solutions-jobs/#comment-4867</guid>
		<description>I am happly for the climate solutions for the  grow of the economy and create jobs.

I belived as that happen Africa will also benefity from it because  Climate Change effective our Nations if that happen will we be greatful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am happly for the climate solutions for the  grow of the economy and create jobs.</p>
<p>I belived as that happen Africa will also benefity from it because  Climate Change effective our Nations if that happen will we be greatful.</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. J. Singmaster</title>
		<link>http://blogs.edf.org/greenroom/2008/11/20/transition-report-climate-solutions-jobs/comment-page-1/#comment-4863</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. J. Singmaster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Nov 2008 15:34:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.edf.org/greenroom/2008/11/20/transition-report-climate-solutions-jobs/#comment-4863</guid>
		<description>Several points to add to my previous ones on other Green Rooms.  Again though; curbing emissions does not remove on balance one molecule of carbon dioxide from the 35% and growing overload of that gas on the globe.  And it will be growing even if we stopped all powerplant,vehicle and home heating emissions because organic detritus called yedoma trapped in permafrost in Siberia is getting exposed due to warming and decomposing to release carbon dioxide and methane(Sci., Vol. 312, pg. 1612-3, 2006).  Latest NOAA report indicated jumps in emissions of carbon dioxide and especially methane with some blame pointed to what is happening in Siberia.  Anerobic decompositon still release carbon dioxide as well, basically 2 CH-OH of a starch or cellulose go to CH4 of methane and CO2 as nature has to get energy by forming CO2 from starch or cellulose.
   The one place, where action to actually remove some CO2 from the overload, is with the massive messes of organic wastes and sewage that present handling allows to undergo naturally biodegrading to reemit CO2and CH4.  I have pointed out that a pyrolysis process applied to those messes would convert more than 50% of the carbon into inert charcoal.  Pyrolysis would also destroy all germs, drugs and most toxics.  I have sent many ED staffers an outline of the pyrolysis program that can also get back some of the energy used into electicity and greatly cut water pollution as well as costs for new dumps with those hazards destroyed.
  While a lot of the little steps get attention, we need action on a much larger scale.  The EPA announce on a conference to evaluate risks of drugs in drinking water suggests to me at least that we better take big steps to get control of the messes of organic wastes and sewage. 
  Dr. James Singmaster, Fremont, CA</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Several points to add to my previous ones on other Green Rooms.  Again though; curbing emissions does not remove on balance one molecule of carbon dioxide from the 35% and growing overload of that gas on the globe.  And it will be growing even if we stopped all powerplant,vehicle and home heating emissions because organic detritus called yedoma trapped in permafrost in Siberia is getting exposed due to warming and decomposing to release carbon dioxide and methane(Sci., Vol. 312, pg. 1612-3, 2006).  Latest NOAA report indicated jumps in emissions of carbon dioxide and especially methane with some blame pointed to what is happening in Siberia.  Anerobic decompositon still release carbon dioxide as well, basically 2 CH-OH of a starch or cellulose go to CH4 of methane and CO2 as nature has to get energy by forming CO2 from starch or cellulose.<br />
   The one place, where action to actually remove some CO2 from the overload, is with the massive messes of organic wastes and sewage that present handling allows to undergo naturally biodegrading to reemit CO2and CH4.  I have pointed out that a pyrolysis process applied to those messes would convert more than 50% of the carbon into inert charcoal.  Pyrolysis would also destroy all germs, drugs and most toxics.  I have sent many ED staffers an outline of the pyrolysis program that can also get back some of the energy used into electicity and greatly cut water pollution as well as costs for new dumps with those hazards destroyed.<br />
  While a lot of the little steps get attention, we need action on a much larger scale.  The EPA announce on a conference to evaluate risks of drugs in drinking water suggests to me at least that we better take big steps to get control of the messes of organic wastes and sewage.<br />
  Dr. James Singmaster, Fremont, CA</p>
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		<title>By: The Quadfather</title>
		<link>http://blogs.edf.org/greenroom/2008/11/20/transition-report-climate-solutions-jobs/comment-page-1/#comment-4862</link>
		<dc:creator>The Quadfather</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Nov 2008 15:01:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.edf.org/greenroom/2008/11/20/transition-report-climate-solutions-jobs/#comment-4862</guid>
		<description>In my area, they just put the ethanol in the gasoline, about 10%. Most folks don&#039;t even know they&#039;re burning it. The pumps have a small sticker to let you know. There is also a gas station (Shell) that&#039;s selling E85 ethanol. I think it&#039;s the local Shell distributor manufacturing this, not the Shell oil company. My truck isn&#039;t made to burn it so I leave it alone. Another Shell station sells biodiesel. I burn it in my &#039;77 mercedes 300D. It burns just like petroleum based diesel fuel. There is no increase or decrease in power. (believe me you can really tell in a 300D if there&#039;s a change in the power output). I don&#039;t know what it&#039;s made from, but it&#039;s a little cheaper than regular diesel, or at least it was for awhile.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my area, they just put the ethanol in the gasoline, about 10%. Most folks don&#039;t even know they&#039;re burning it. The pumps have a small sticker to let you know. There is also a gas station (Shell) that&#039;s selling E85 ethanol. I think it&#039;s the local Shell distributor manufacturing this, not the Shell oil company. My truck isn&#039;t made to burn it so I leave it alone. Another Shell station sells biodiesel. I burn it in my &#039;77 mercedes 300D. It burns just like petroleum based diesel fuel. There is no increase or decrease in power. (believe me you can really tell in a 300D if there&#039;s a change in the power output). I don&#039;t know what it&#039;s made from, but it&#039;s a little cheaper than regular diesel, or at least it was for awhile.</p>
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		<title>By: Hannah Blakeman</title>
		<link>http://blogs.edf.org/greenroom/2008/11/20/transition-report-climate-solutions-jobs/comment-page-1/#comment-4860</link>
		<dc:creator>Hannah Blakeman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 21:47:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.edf.org/greenroom/2008/11/20/transition-report-climate-solutions-jobs/#comment-4860</guid>
		<description>You should look at &quot;Real Goods&quot;.  They are like a R&amp;D company that has been developing and putting into practice green and/or alternative energy stuff, building practices, water conservation, sewage treatment systems for decades.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You should look at &#034;Real Goods&#034;.  They are like a R&amp;D company that has been developing and putting into practice green and/or alternative energy stuff, building practices, water conservation, sewage treatment systems for decades.</p>
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		<title>By: hawkeye</title>
		<link>http://blogs.edf.org/greenroom/2008/11/20/transition-report-climate-solutions-jobs/comment-page-1/#comment-4857</link>
		<dc:creator>hawkeye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 13:25:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.edf.org/greenroom/2008/11/20/transition-report-climate-solutions-jobs/#comment-4857</guid>
		<description>Yes, wind turbines contain a bunch of parts that could be made in the USA, and I hope that is in fact being done because we do need the jobs.  However, I have been an alternate energy fan since the oil embargo back in the early 70s and have watched with chagrin as company after company in the states has either shut down, sold out, or moved to a foreign land.  This is particularly true of wind generators and water turbines, and the answer is pretty simple.  

Americans enjoy cheap energy compared to the Euros and the demand for alternate energy machines in the USA simple will not support a sizeable operation here in the states.  So the people move offshore to where the demand is.  When fuel costs as much per liter in Europe as it does per gallon in the USA that should tell you something about the demand situation.

I used to dance a lot in Dallas when I was single and I met a few foreigners in the dance halls. One lady was from 
England and she was shocked that Americans were so laid b back about their waste disposal.  She said the Brits save their newspapers and any small item what will burn and use these things for fuel to cook, heat water with or to heat a room. That might be pretty polluting but at least they were right on the conservation end of the equation.  Waste not want not, as the old saying goes.
 
I am wondering, has anyone seen one of tose wind turbines with a vertical axis working lately?  Some sort of avoirdupois rotor, pardon the spelling.  This thing is based on an ancient principle and responds well to very low wind speeds compared to the style of turbine that sits high on a tower.  There used to be one at a metal plating plant just north of Norman, Ok. along I-35, but they took it down and moved it away.  The center axis became bent for some accidental reason.  I enquired about the thing and the company had finally moved its operations to 
Europe, possibly Spain.  It did have a drawback, and that was that it needed a small electric motor to start its rotation so the blades could pick up the wind and make it go, but once it was running, which was at a speed of 30 rpm or so, the thing was very powerful.  This particular one generated three phase AC power, which is commonly needed and used for heavy industrial applications.

The rotor is shaped like and egg beater attachment for a mixer or like a slicing onion that has a long root and stem section.  If I remember correctly the blades would flex and change shape slightly as the wind velocity changed.  High winds, a short fat onion shape, and low wind velocity a tall slender onion shape. This may have had something to do with maintaining a constant speed as the thing generated AC current as far as I can remember, something on the order of 220 Volts or more.

My Google is sleep this morning so I could not obtain a web reference for what I am describing, but I&#039;ll bet one of my wife&#039;s Anise cookies that something is on the web about this rotor turbine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, wind turbines contain a bunch of parts that could be made in the USA, and I hope that is in fact being done because we do need the jobs.  However, I have been an alternate energy fan since the oil embargo back in the early 70s and have watched with chagrin as company after company in the states has either shut down, sold out, or moved to a foreign land.  This is particularly true of wind generators and water turbines, and the answer is pretty simple.  </p>
<p>Americans enjoy cheap energy compared to the Euros and the demand for alternate energy machines in the USA simple will not support a sizeable operation here in the states.  So the people move offshore to where the demand is.  When fuel costs as much per liter in Europe as it does per gallon in the USA that should tell you something about the demand situation.</p>
<p>I used to dance a lot in Dallas when I was single and I met a few foreigners in the dance halls. One lady was from<br />
England and she was shocked that Americans were so laid b back about their waste disposal.  She said the Brits save their newspapers and any small item what will burn and use these things for fuel to cook, heat water with or to heat a room. That might be pretty polluting but at least they were right on the conservation end of the equation.  Waste not want not, as the old saying goes.</p>
<p>I am wondering, has anyone seen one of tose wind turbines with a vertical axis working lately?  Some sort of avoirdupois rotor, pardon the spelling.  This thing is based on an ancient principle and responds well to very low wind speeds compared to the style of turbine that sits high on a tower.  There used to be one at a metal plating plant just north of Norman, Ok. along I-35, but they took it down and moved it away.  The center axis became bent for some accidental reason.  I enquired about the thing and the company had finally moved its operations to<br />
Europe, possibly Spain.  It did have a drawback, and that was that it needed a small electric motor to start its rotation so the blades could pick up the wind and make it go, but once it was running, which was at a speed of 30 rpm or so, the thing was very powerful.  This particular one generated three phase AC power, which is commonly needed and used for heavy industrial applications.</p>
<p>The rotor is shaped like and egg beater attachment for a mixer or like a slicing onion that has a long root and stem section.  If I remember correctly the blades would flex and change shape slightly as the wind velocity changed.  High winds, a short fat onion shape, and low wind velocity a tall slender onion shape. This may have had something to do with maintaining a constant speed as the thing generated AC current as far as I can remember, something on the order of 220 Volts or more.</p>
<p>My Google is sleep this morning so I could not obtain a web reference for what I am describing, but I&#039;ll bet one of my wife&#039;s Anise cookies that something is on the web about this rotor turbine.</p>
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		<title>By: hawkeye</title>
		<link>http://blogs.edf.org/greenroom/2008/11/20/transition-report-climate-solutions-jobs/comment-page-1/#comment-4856</link>
		<dc:creator>hawkeye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 13:04:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.edf.org/greenroom/2008/11/20/transition-report-climate-solutions-jobs/#comment-4856</guid>
		<description>Answering Quadfather&#039;s post of Nov. 21.  

I understand your need for a large powerful truck rather than a light weight economy job.  I grew up on a farm and we used our pickups for more than just personal transportation.  At present I am still hanging on to a 26&#039; RV trailer, and a little truck certainly wouldn&#039;t be strong enough to pull it or heavy enough to stop it, so you are correct in your thinking.  However, to simply use a 1/2 ton pickup as a car, which is what many do here in the sticks, is fuelish.  Young boys love to buy the older Chevies and Fords and put loud pipes on them.  The kid in me likes that too but it doesn&#039;t make it a conservative thing to do. IMO a youngster smoking tobacco is about as irresponsible cost wise as driving a fuelish vehicle in that both habits really eat up the cash and both habits emit pollutants. Most kids cannot afford either habit and those that work part time spend most of their income on these things.

As to your comment on CO2 not being a pollutant, you raise a good point because plants use CO2 and in return give us oxygen.  However, above certain concentrations the CO2 can be a pollutant, and that is what carbon sequestering and reduction is all about, keeping the level of CO2 down to a point that plant life can absorb enough of it to keep the concentration at a healthy level. 

I like the idea of having an algae pond close to a power plant and feeding it with CO2 from the boiler exhausts.  Recently there has been news of algae being used to make ethanol and other products, but as usual, it was from another country, maybe the Netherlands, and not from the USA. Americans tend to be fuelish because we don&#039;t know what it is to pay thru the nose for fuel like the Euros do.  
 
And I think the recent dramatic reduction in the price of gasoline will work to derail or delay a number of good alternative energy projects.  We need to keep the interest in carbon sequestering going if we are to continue to promote efficiency and conservation because once fuel comes down in price folks feel better and are reluctant to make the switch to alternate fuels.

It is surprising how many older people will not used E10,
and I think that is pure ignorance talking.  I have used it since the late 80s when it became available in the Dallas area, which is doing something in an oil patch state like Texas. When those proud Dallasites started seeing smog hanging over their precious city they woke up to what pollution was and quit gloating about their clean air.

There is another fuel that is about as potent as gasoline, and that is butanol.  In fact, it has many qualities that make it more eco friendly than gasoline. Apparently there is not a process at present to make it price competitive with gasoline.  

I think people need to consider one reason why gasoline is so cost competitive compared to alternate fuels.  Mother Nature has basically handed us the stuff, except for refining of the crude, where with alternate fuels we usally have to coax them from bio feedstocks.  So give the biofuels a break as we have to transform them into a state that can be utilized in an engine and that does cost money.  What we can do is to increase the efficiency of the vehicle that uses the biofuel in order to compensate for its lack of potency vs. gasoline, and a nice by product is a cleaner burning fuel that is more eco friendly. 

I am not an enviro wacko although this morning I may be coming off like one.  I simply want a fuel that minimizes the impact on the environment, that is affordable, and that is domestic in origin so we don&#039;t have to spill blood over a barrel of oil.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Answering Quadfather&#039;s post of Nov. 21.  </p>
<p>I understand your need for a large powerful truck rather than a light weight economy job.  I grew up on a farm and we used our pickups for more than just personal transportation.  At present I am still hanging on to a 26&#039; RV trailer, and a little truck certainly wouldn&#039;t be strong enough to pull it or heavy enough to stop it, so you are correct in your thinking.  However, to simply use a 1/2 ton pickup as a car, which is what many do here in the sticks, is fuelish.  Young boys love to buy the older Chevies and Fords and put loud pipes on them.  The kid in me likes that too but it doesn&#039;t make it a conservative thing to do. IMO a youngster smoking tobacco is about as irresponsible cost wise as driving a fuelish vehicle in that both habits really eat up the cash and both habits emit pollutants. Most kids cannot afford either habit and those that work part time spend most of their income on these things.</p>
<p>As to your comment on CO2 not being a pollutant, you raise a good point because plants use CO2 and in return give us oxygen.  However, above certain concentrations the CO2 can be a pollutant, and that is what carbon sequestering and reduction is all about, keeping the level of CO2 down to a point that plant life can absorb enough of it to keep the concentration at a healthy level. </p>
<p>I like the idea of having an algae pond close to a power plant and feeding it with CO2 from the boiler exhausts.  Recently there has been news of algae being used to make ethanol and other products, but as usual, it was from another country, maybe the Netherlands, and not from the USA. Americans tend to be fuelish because we don&#039;t know what it is to pay thru the nose for fuel like the Euros do.  </p>
<p>And I think the recent dramatic reduction in the price of gasoline will work to derail or delay a number of good alternative energy projects.  We need to keep the interest in carbon sequestering going if we are to continue to promote efficiency and conservation because once fuel comes down in price folks feel better and are reluctant to make the switch to alternate fuels.</p>
<p>It is surprising how many older people will not used E10,<br />
and I think that is pure ignorance talking.  I have used it since the late 80s when it became available in the Dallas area, which is doing something in an oil patch state like Texas. When those proud Dallasites started seeing smog hanging over their precious city they woke up to what pollution was and quit gloating about their clean air.</p>
<p>There is another fuel that is about as potent as gasoline, and that is butanol.  In fact, it has many qualities that make it more eco friendly than gasoline. Apparently there is not a process at present to make it price competitive with gasoline.  </p>
<p>I think people need to consider one reason why gasoline is so cost competitive compared to alternate fuels.  Mother Nature has basically handed us the stuff, except for refining of the crude, where with alternate fuels we usally have to coax them from bio feedstocks.  So give the biofuels a break as we have to transform them into a state that can be utilized in an engine and that does cost money.  What we can do is to increase the efficiency of the vehicle that uses the biofuel in order to compensate for its lack of potency vs. gasoline, and a nice by product is a cleaner burning fuel that is more eco friendly. </p>
<p>I am not an enviro wacko although this morning I may be coming off like one.  I simply want a fuel that minimizes the impact on the environment, that is affordable, and that is domestic in origin so we don&#039;t have to spill blood over a barrel of oil.</p>
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		<title>By: shahrokh mehrpisheh</title>
		<link>http://blogs.edf.org/greenroom/2008/11/20/transition-report-climate-solutions-jobs/comment-page-1/#comment-4854</link>
		<dc:creator>shahrokh mehrpisheh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 07:53:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.edf.org/greenroom/2008/11/20/transition-report-climate-solutions-jobs/#comment-4854</guid>
		<description>I like our planet and the nature and animals, we must to increase this think and forget the money , money will not remain but the nature will be remain for us,the nature is more beautiful than machines and money and areoplanes and ships , this is our sentence: LOVE THE NATURE</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like our planet and the nature and animals, we must to increase this think and forget the money , money will not remain but the nature will be remain for us,the nature is more beautiful than machines and money and areoplanes and ships , this is our sentence: LOVE THE NATURE</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://blogs.edf.org/greenroom/2008/11/20/transition-report-climate-solutions-jobs/comment-page-1/#comment-4853</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 07:20:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.edf.org/greenroom/2008/11/20/transition-report-climate-solutions-jobs/#comment-4853</guid>
		<description>I am glad Americans are starting to think about the planet and not being swayed by BIG BUSINESS views on sustainable energy too costly and viable. I would like to see these non-profit organizations work together to put pressure on the government to support these initiatives. Please see the article released by the PERI group just this year on &quot;Program to Create Good Jobs and Start Building a low-carbon economy.
Consumers are the only ones that can really sway BIG Business like the 3 major car manufactures to start supporting clean efficient cars by not buying their product. Evidence of the hearing of the Big 3 Car Manufactures coming to Washington in their expensive corporate jets with no plan  or strategy in changing their industry. Sounds more like the sunset industries of the smoke stack era.
We should be supporting those who are innovative and making a difference. New companies with new vision that is where America must lead themselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am glad Americans are starting to think about the planet and not being swayed by BIG BUSINESS views on sustainable energy too costly and viable. I would like to see these non-profit organizations work together to put pressure on the government to support these initiatives. Please see the article released by the PERI group just this year on &#034;Program to Create Good Jobs and Start Building a low-carbon economy.<br />
Consumers are the only ones that can really sway BIG Business like the 3 major car manufactures to start supporting clean efficient cars by not buying their product. Evidence of the hearing of the Big 3 Car Manufactures coming to Washington in their expensive corporate jets with no plan  or strategy in changing their industry. Sounds more like the sunset industries of the smoke stack era.<br />
We should be supporting those who are innovative and making a difference. New companies with new vision that is where America must lead themselves.</p>
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