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	<title>Comments on: Short-Term Cooling from La Niña</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2008/03/24/cooling_from_la_nina/</link>
	<description>Blogging the science and policy of global warming</description>
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		<title>By: richardschumacher</title>
		<link>http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2008/03/24/cooling_from_la_nina/comment-page-1/#comment-1490</link>
		<dc:creator>richardschumacher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 15:28:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2008/03/24/cooling_from_la_nina/#comment-1490</guid>
		<description>Two key points which are often lost in popular accounts:

1. Global warming is not the same thing as climate change.  The increasing concentration of atmospheric CO2 and other greenhouse gases causes the Earth as a whole to retain more heat.  That&#039;s global warming.  Climate change is mostly a *consequence* of global warming; climate change is not the principal cause of global warming and it&#039;s not the same thing as global warming. 

2. Another way of saying &quot;the Earth as a whole retains more heat&quot; is &quot;the overall average temperature of the Earth&#039;s oceans and atmosphere increases&quot;.  But this does *not* mean that all of the atmosphere and all of the oceans are everywhere getting warmer all of the time.  There are local variations, and variations which can last for years.  La Nina is one example.  La Nina temporarily exposes cold deep ocean water which absorbs much of the global warming heat that would otherwise go into the atmosphere.  This temporarily slows or stops the temperature rise of the atmosphere.  When La Nina stops, the flow of heat into the deep ocean slows down, and heating of the atmosphere resumes.  Lay people commonly think that atmospheric temperature increase is the only signal of global warming, so when global average atmospheric temperature holds steady or drops they mistake it as a sign that global warming has stopped or that it never existed. 

(Obviously this leaves out a lot of detail.  An ounce of imprecision saves a ton of explanation.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two key points which are often lost in popular accounts:</p>
<p>1. Global warming is not the same thing as climate change.  The increasing concentration of atmospheric CO2 and other greenhouse gases causes the Earth as a whole to retain more heat.  That&#039;s global warming.  Climate change is mostly a *consequence* of global warming; climate change is not the principal cause of global warming and it&#039;s not the same thing as global warming. </p>
<p>2. Another way of saying &#034;the Earth as a whole retains more heat&#034; is &#034;the overall average temperature of the Earth&#039;s oceans and atmosphere increases&#034;.  But this does *not* mean that all of the atmosphere and all of the oceans are everywhere getting warmer all of the time.  There are local variations, and variations which can last for years.  La Nina is one example.  La Nina temporarily exposes cold deep ocean water which absorbs much of the global warming heat that would otherwise go into the atmosphere.  This temporarily slows or stops the temperature rise of the atmosphere.  When La Nina stops, the flow of heat into the deep ocean slows down, and heating of the atmosphere resumes.  Lay people commonly think that atmospheric temperature increase is the only signal of global warming, so when global average atmospheric temperature holds steady or drops they mistake it as a sign that global warming has stopped or that it never existed. </p>
<p>(Obviously this leaves out a lot of detail.  An ounce of imprecision saves a ton of explanation.)</p>
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		<title>By: Lisa Moore</title>
		<link>http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2008/03/24/cooling_from_la_nina/comment-page-1/#comment-1216</link>
		<dc:creator>Lisa Moore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 16:42:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2008/03/24/cooling_from_la_nina/#comment-1216</guid>
		<description>Thanks kenzrw for your compliments. It can be difficult to get a nuanced picture out to the public!  Like you say, even the nuanced, scientifically based picture is clear enough to warrant action.

bobclive, there&#039;s a great summary of the relationship between warming and El Nino in &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2006/05/el-nino-global-warming/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this RealClimate post&lt;/a&gt; (see the last 3 paragraphs, plus this &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2006/06/on-a-weakening-of-the-walker-circulation/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;follow-up post&lt;/a&gt;). So you&#039;re right that this is still an area of really active research.   However, note that the question is how El Nino responds to warming, not to CO2.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks kenzrw for your compliments. It can be difficult to get a nuanced picture out to the public!  Like you say, even the nuanced, scientifically based picture is clear enough to warrant action.</p>
<p>bobclive, there&#039;s a great summary of the relationship between warming and El Nino in <a href="http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2006/05/el-nino-global-warming/" rel="nofollow">this RealClimate post</a> (see the last 3 paragraphs, plus this <a href="http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2006/06/on-a-weakening-of-the-walker-circulation/" rel="nofollow">follow-up post</a>). So you&#039;re right that this is still an area of really active research.   However, note that the question is how El Nino responds to warming, not to CO2.</p>
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		<title>By: bobclive</title>
		<link>http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2008/03/24/cooling_from_la_nina/comment-page-1/#comment-1205</link>
		<dc:creator>bobclive</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 19:05:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2008/03/24/cooling_from_la_nina/#comment-1205</guid>
		<description>I agree with Kenzrw

Changes in the last couple of decades have caused the frequency of El Nino to increase (now coming every two years instead of the average rate of 7 years as in the past) and the La Nina phenomena has almost DISAPPEARED,this same time period also corresponds to a RISE in global temperatures of 0.5C in the last three decades.

It is suggested that these are a periodic oscillation related to the oceanic distribution of tropical heat. Although a significant natural influence on interannual weather, the temperature effects of the cycle smooth out over years and decades, that might have been the case when they occurred about every 7 years prior to the 1970`s, but not when they occur every TWO years as there is very little time for the temperature to normalise over that short period.

The Met Office Hadley Centre Coupled4 Model (HadCM2) has suggested than an increase in carbon dioxide in the atmosphere will indeed increase the frequency and intensity of El Niños. However, the third version of that model (HadCM3) does NOT show this; it predicts LITTLE or NO change in how El Niños occur.

It appears CO2 is NOT the cause.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Kenzrw</p>
<p>Changes in the last couple of decades have caused the frequency of El Nino to increase (now coming every two years instead of the average rate of 7 years as in the past) and the La Nina phenomena has almost DISAPPEARED,this same time period also corresponds to a RISE in global temperatures of 0.5C in the last three decades.</p>
<p>It is suggested that these are a periodic oscillation related to the oceanic distribution of tropical heat. Although a significant natural influence on interannual weather, the temperature effects of the cycle smooth out over years and decades, that might have been the case when they occurred about every 7 years prior to the 1970`s, but not when they occur every TWO years as there is very little time for the temperature to normalise over that short period.</p>
<p>The Met Office Hadley Centre Coupled4 Model (HadCM2) has suggested than an increase in carbon dioxide in the atmosphere will indeed increase the frequency and intensity of El Niños. However, the third version of that model (HadCM3) does NOT show this; it predicts LITTLE or NO change in how El Niños occur.</p>
<p>It appears CO2 is NOT the cause.</p>
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		<title>By: Environmental Capital - WSJ.com : Stuffing the Sky: Carbon's Up--Good or Bad?</title>
		<link>http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2008/03/24/cooling_from_la_nina/comment-page-1/#comment-1187</link>
		<dc:creator>Environmental Capital - WSJ.com : Stuffing the Sky: Carbon's Up--Good or Bad?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:19:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2008/03/24/cooling_from_la_nina/#comment-1187</guid>
		<description>[...] minimum</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] minimum</p>
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		<title>By: marsh02</title>
		<link>http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2008/03/24/cooling_from_la_nina/comment-page-1/#comment-1077</link>
		<dc:creator>marsh02</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 19:19:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2008/03/24/cooling_from_la_nina/#comment-1077</guid>
		<description>I agree. I too wish that posts such as Dr. Moore&#039;s were more widely distributed.  Keep up the excellent work!  And post more! I look forward to your posts more than any of the other bloggers&#039; posts on Climate 411.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree. I too wish that posts such as Dr. Moore&#039;s were more widely distributed.  Keep up the excellent work!  And post more! I look forward to your posts more than any of the other bloggers&#039; posts on Climate 411.</p>
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		<title>By: kenzrw</title>
		<link>http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2008/03/24/cooling_from_la_nina/comment-page-1/#comment-1041</link>
		<dc:creator>kenzrw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 22:18:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2008/03/24/cooling_from_la_nina/#comment-1041</guid>
		<description>I remember that previous post now...in fact I commented on it in 2007. Still, the general public has a short-term memory mentality....so if they see some cooling in the short term, it&#039;s hard to convince them to take immediate action for a longer-term result, in my opinion. 

Your comment on &#039;the human signal is emerging from the natural noise&#039; is absolutely right, but the main media organizations are playing it like humans are the ONLY cause of the warming when in fact we are not the only cause. The media ignores facts like La Nina for instance and also ignores severe weather events of the past 100 years, always implying that severe weather today has never happened before, or saying that Hurrican Katrina &#039;proves&#039; global warming, when in fact (according to the National Hurricane Center), Katrina was only a cat 3 when it hit New Orleans and there were numerous more powerful hurricanes in the past 100 years, including the cat 4 Galveston storm of 1900. We have to look at the big picture for sure, but past weather events have to be included in that discussion, as well as short-term cooling caused by La Nina.  

I think Nature will always play a role in climate change, in feedbacks, positive or negative. We don&#039;t know all the answers yet and that&#039;s why billions are still spent on climate research even though according to some, the &#039;debate is over&#039;. Research and debate is never over in science. 

If EDF&#039;s more scientifically oriented news and articles would make the national network news, such as your comments above, instead of the blatant alarmism that so many in the media hype, we&#039;d be much farther along in getting the needed caps on emissions that we should impose. Alarmism tends to cause bad short-term policy, like the corn-based ethanol fiasco, which is actually causing MORE global warming, not less (see this weeks&#039; TIME magazine, for instance). 

Sorry about the long rant, but I feel strongly about telling people ALL the facts of climate change, including the temporary La Nina cooling effect and the fact that we&#039;ve had  stormy weather, including heat waves, in the past, not just today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I remember that previous post now&#8230;in fact I commented on it in 2007. Still, the general public has a short-term memory mentality&#8230;.so if they see some cooling in the short term, it&#039;s hard to convince them to take immediate action for a longer-term result, in my opinion. </p>
<p>Your comment on &#039;the human signal is emerging from the natural noise&#039; is absolutely right, but the main media organizations are playing it like humans are the ONLY cause of the warming when in fact we are not the only cause. The media ignores facts like La Nina for instance and also ignores severe weather events of the past 100 years, always implying that severe weather today has never happened before, or saying that Hurrican Katrina &#039;proves&#039; global warming, when in fact (according to the National Hurricane Center), Katrina was only a cat 3 when it hit New Orleans and there were numerous more powerful hurricanes in the past 100 years, including the cat 4 Galveston storm of 1900. We have to look at the big picture for sure, but past weather events have to be included in that discussion, as well as short-term cooling caused by La Nina.  </p>
<p>I think Nature will always play a role in climate change, in feedbacks, positive or negative. We don&#039;t know all the answers yet and that&#039;s why billions are still spent on climate research even though according to some, the &#039;debate is over&#039;. Research and debate is never over in science. </p>
<p>If EDF&#039;s more scientifically oriented news and articles would make the national network news, such as your comments above, instead of the blatant alarmism that so many in the media hype, we&#039;d be much farther along in getting the needed caps on emissions that we should impose. Alarmism tends to cause bad short-term policy, like the corn-based ethanol fiasco, which is actually causing MORE global warming, not less (see this weeks&#039; TIME magazine, for instance). </p>
<p>Sorry about the long rant, but I feel strongly about telling people ALL the facts of climate change, including the temporary La Nina cooling effect and the fact that we&#039;ve had  stormy weather, including heat waves, in the past, not just today.</p>
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		<title>By: Lisa Moore</title>
		<link>http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2008/03/24/cooling_from_la_nina/comment-page-1/#comment-1038</link>
		<dc:creator>Lisa Moore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 21:32:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2008/03/24/cooling_from_la_nina/#comment-1038</guid>
		<description>Scientists, including the IPCC, certainly know about and include natural climate variation in their study of climate change. It&#039;s an essential part of climate, after all!  For example, see my earlier post about how scientists are learning to &lt;a href=&quot;http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2007/08/10/shortterm_change/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;model natural climate variability&lt;/a&gt;.

It&#039;s important to keep time scales in mind. Short-term variation (a couple of years), both up and down, is normal. But the longer term trend (over decades) is clearly up. That upward trend is the influence of all the extra greenhouse gases we&#039;re producing - the human signal is emerging from the natural noise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scientists, including the IPCC, certainly know about and include natural climate variation in their study of climate change. It&#039;s an essential part of climate, after all!  For example, see my earlier post about how scientists are learning to <a href="http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2007/08/10/shortterm_change/" rel="nofollow">model natural climate variability</a>.</p>
<p>It&#039;s important to keep time scales in mind. Short-term variation (a couple of years), both up and down, is normal. But the longer term trend (over decades) is clearly up. That upward trend is the influence of all the extra greenhouse gases we&#039;re producing &#8211; the human signal is emerging from the natural noise.</p>
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		<title>By: kenzrw</title>
		<link>http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2008/03/24/cooling_from_la_nina/comment-page-1/#comment-1023</link>
		<dc:creator>kenzrw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 12:53:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2008/03/24/cooling_from_la_nina/#comment-1023</guid>
		<description>Has everyone seen this BBC story regarding the UN&#039;s World Meteorolgical Organization report regarding La Nina and short term cooling? They headline that &#039;global warming dips year&#039; and that the &#039;natural&#039; El Nina is responsible. The story also states that global temperatures have not risen in 10 years, since 1998, but that the decade as whole was the warmest on record, although no one year was warmer than the El Nino induced warming of 1998. 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7329799.stm

The UN WMO goes on to state that they forecast a new record warm year will be observed within 5 years. 

My question and concern regarding this is why the IPCC and the papers they reviewed didn&#039;t take these natural ocean warm and cool periods into account? Or did they? I&#039;m sure the public is getting more confused all the time since the media has been saying over and over that the planet is warming, all caused my humans. Now a natural force, La Nina, comes along and slows this warming, so in many people&#039;s mind this means that humans may not be playing as big a role in climate change as has been hyped.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Has everyone seen this BBC story regarding the UN&#039;s World Meteorolgical Organization report regarding La Nina and short term cooling? They headline that &#039;global warming dips year&#039; and that the &#039;natural&#039; El Nina is responsible. The story also states that global temperatures have not risen in 10 years, since 1998, but that the decade as whole was the warmest on record, although no one year was warmer than the El Nino induced warming of 1998. </p>
<p><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7329799.stm" rel="nofollow">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7329799.stm</a></p>
<p>The UN WMO goes on to state that they forecast a new record warm year will be observed within 5 years. </p>
<p>My question and concern regarding this is why the IPCC and the papers they reviewed didn&#039;t take these natural ocean warm and cool periods into account? Or did they? I&#039;m sure the public is getting more confused all the time since the media has been saying over and over that the planet is warming, all caused my humans. Now a natural force, La Nina, comes along and slows this warming, so in many people&#039;s mind this means that humans may not be playing as big a role in climate change as has been hyped.</p>
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		<title>By: alexj</title>
		<link>http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2008/03/24/cooling_from_la_nina/comment-page-1/#comment-1020</link>
		<dc:creator>alexj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 05:34:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2008/03/24/cooling_from_la_nina/#comment-1020</guid>
		<description>It does seem that many people don&#039;t get the difference between interannual weather fluctuation and global climate change. Global climate variability has been relatively modest during the holocene. Now the concern is about rapid change during this populous, biodiverse interglacial period. On soot, from what I&#039;ve read it has stronger regional effects (like intensifying glacial melt in the Himalayas), but not so much globally. Particulates and sulfate aerosols can also provide a shorter-term cooling effect/partial offset of global warming when suspended at high altitudes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It does seem that many people don&#039;t get the difference between interannual weather fluctuation and global climate change. Global climate variability has been relatively modest during the holocene. Now the concern is about rapid change during this populous, biodiverse interglacial period. On soot, from what I&#039;ve read it has stronger regional effects (like intensifying glacial melt in the Himalayas), but not so much globally. Particulates and sulfate aerosols can also provide a shorter-term cooling effect/partial offset of global warming when suspended at high altitudes.</p>
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		<title>By: oligarchynot</title>
		<link>http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2008/03/24/cooling_from_la_nina/comment-page-1/#comment-995</link>
		<dc:creator>oligarchynot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 21:31:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2008/03/24/cooling_from_la_nina/#comment-995</guid>
		<description>Taking action to prevent the destruction of our beloved home -- Planet Earth -- must start with each individual and the choices each of us make daily.  If each of us becomes committed to changing our wasteful habits, and act on that commitment, we will have an instantaneous revolution that will &quot;trickle up&quot; to our governments and big business.  

It is a waste of critical time to sit around denying the validity of global warming or thinking that we can&#039;t have an effect as individuals and must wait on our governments to take action or blame the business world for causing the problem.  They will follow us where we go since we are their bread and butter.  The actions of one individual combined with the actions of many other individuals will be revolutionary in its effect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Taking action to prevent the destruction of our beloved home &#8212; Planet Earth &#8212; must start with each individual and the choices each of us make daily.  If each of us becomes committed to changing our wasteful habits, and act on that commitment, we will have an instantaneous revolution that will &#034;trickle up&#034; to our governments and big business.  </p>
<p>It is a waste of critical time to sit around denying the validity of global warming or thinking that we can&#039;t have an effect as individuals and must wait on our governments to take action or blame the business world for causing the problem.  They will follow us where we go since we are their bread and butter.  The actions of one individual combined with the actions of many other individuals will be revolutionary in its effect.</p>
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