Comments on: The Vampire that Won't Die http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2007/08/08/gw_deniers/ Blogging the science and policy of global warming Wed, 17 Mar 2010 08:45:07 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Sheryl Canter http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2007/08/08/gw_deniers/comment-page-1/#comment-765 Sheryl Canter Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:14:03 +0000 http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2007/08/08/gw_deniers/#comment-765 Thanks for reading the article. You made a perceptive comment in response to it, too. Scientists measure pollution in terms of density (particles per unit of atmosphere) versus "thickness". I don't know the exact numbers involved. I do know that the Clean Air Act solved the problem. With reduced air pollution and smog, the effect of global dimming was greatly reduced. Thanks for reading the article. You made a perceptive comment in response to it, too.

Scientists measure pollution in terms of density (particles per unit of atmosphere) versus "thickness". I don't know the exact numbers involved. I do know that the Clean Air Act solved the problem. With reduced air pollution and smog, the effect of global dimming was greatly reduced.

]]> By: stateoffear http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2007/08/08/gw_deniers/comment-page-1/#comment-763 stateoffear Thu, 31 Jan 2008 00:52:32 +0000 http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2007/08/08/gw_deniers/#comment-763 Okay, I'd already read your article, but there was no meantion of how thick the layer of pollution was--how much pollution was needed to "significantly cool the earth." Okay, I'd already read your article, but there was no meantion of how thick the layer of pollution was–how much pollution was needed to "significantly cool the earth."

]]> By: Sheryl Canter http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2007/08/08/gw_deniers/comment-page-1/#comment-754 Sheryl Canter Tue, 29 Jan 2008 23:12:00 +0000 http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2007/08/08/gw_deniers/#comment-754 stateoffear - we don't feed the vampires here. If you have real curiosity, read the blog. Here's a place for you to start - an article on global dimming: http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2007/04/03/global_dimming/ stateoffear – we don't feed the vampires here. If you have real curiosity, read the blog. Here's a place for you to start – an article on global dimming:

http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2007/04/03/global_dimming/

]]> By: stateoffear http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2007/08/08/gw_deniers/comment-page-1/#comment-737 stateoffear Mon, 28 Jan 2008 03:30:30 +0000 http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2007/08/08/gw_deniers/#comment-737 Uh, Buffy-- It's an initiation rite, not an initiation right. Uh, Buffy–
It's an initiation rite, not an initiation right.

]]> By: stateoffear http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2007/08/08/gw_deniers/comment-page-1/#comment-736 stateoffear Mon, 28 Jan 2008 03:23:57 +0000 http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2007/08/08/gw_deniers/#comment-736 I suppose I must be one of these evil vampires . . . though my name might be a bit of a hint. Because you apparently have answers--albeit strange and depthless ones--I do not present my well researched points, but instead a few interesting questions: A. Just how thick was this layer of pollution that supposedly 'dimmed the sun?' B. Where did the logic for your swindles on swindles thing-a-ma-bob come from? C. How much warmth is needed to cause all this chaotic destruction you've been rambling on about? (Because last time I check, overall temperature change in the last 100 years was .3 degrees Celcius.) Please enlighten me on these topics. Skeptically, stateoffear I suppose I must be one of these evil vampires . . . though my name might be a bit of a hint. Because you apparently have answers–albeit strange and depthless ones–I do not present my well researched points, but instead a few interesting questions:
A. Just how thick was this layer of pollution that supposedly 'dimmed the sun?'
B. Where did the logic for your swindles on swindles thing-a-ma-bob come from?
C. How much warmth is needed to cause all this chaotic destruction you've been rambling on about? (Because last time I check, overall temperature change in the last 100 years was .3 degrees Celcius.)
Please enlighten me on these topics.
Skeptically,
stateoffear

]]> By: jan http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2007/08/08/gw_deniers/comment-page-1/#comment-444 jan Thu, 20 Sep 2007 07:07:43 +0000 http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2007/08/08/gw_deniers/#comment-444 Here is one suggestion for collecting the data in one place. This site could host a kind of discussion between scientists and published individuals promoting the divergent views: we must do something, we need to do nothing. It would be very helpful if the two camps could be somewhat organized among themselves to avoid duplication of posts. The format could include categories, with the discussion for each taking maybe a week. The first category could be what is known about the previous history of our planet heating up, and the second category what is known about this particular heating up period, and a third, what is known about what causes the heating. A final catgegory could be what else do we need to know to come to a conclusion about what is causing the heating, and how do we get that data. Simple categories. First one group could discuss, then the second group could be charged with first addressing any divergent views of what was written by the first group, then adding new ideas. The next week would have a reversal of which group would start first with the next category. This website could take a stab at suggesting the individual scientists for each side, maybe limiting the number to 10. There could be a time period for readers to suggest others. Here is one suggestion for collecting the data in one place. This site could host a kind of discussion between scientists and published individuals promoting the divergent views: we must do something, we need to do nothing. It would be very helpful if the two camps could be somewhat organized among themselves to avoid duplication of posts. The format could include categories, with the discussion for each taking maybe a week. The first category could be what is known about the previous history of our planet heating up, and the second category what is known about this particular heating up period, and a third, what is known about what causes the heating. A final catgegory could be what else do we need to know to come to a conclusion about what is causing the heating, and how do we get that data. Simple categories. First one group could discuss, then the second group could be charged with first addressing any divergent views of what was written by the first group, then adding new ideas. The next week would have a reversal of which group would start first with the next category. This website could take a stab at suggesting the individual scientists for each side, maybe limiting the number to 10. There could be a time period for readers to suggest others.

]]> By: jan http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2007/08/08/gw_deniers/comment-page-1/#comment-443 jan Thu, 20 Sep 2007 06:49:25 +0000 http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2007/08/08/gw_deniers/#comment-443 I think there are few who would say some heating up of the planet is simply not happening. The observation of shrinking polar ice caps, the effect on polar bears, and the shrinking of ice caps on mountains that formerly had larger areas is measureable and occurring. What the real issue seems to be is whether or not this is a natural process, part of a cycle. And secondly, regardless of whether it is or is not a natural process, whether or not people can, or should do anything to slow or stop the process. How can we impartially, without rhetoric, and without agendas trying to push us to one conclusion or the other determine what precisely is responsible? That is the true nature of science, and following that impartial method should be the commitment of all of us, it seems to me. Our survival could possibly depend on such impartial analysis. I think there are few who would say some heating up of the planet is simply not happening. The observation of shrinking polar ice caps, the effect on polar bears, and the shrinking of ice caps on mountains that formerly had larger areas is measureable and occurring. What the real issue seems to be is whether or not this is a natural process, part of a cycle. And secondly, regardless of whether it is or is not a natural process, whether or not people can, or should do anything to slow or stop the process. How can we impartially, without rhetoric, and without agendas trying to push us to one conclusion or the other determine what precisely is responsible? That is the true nature of science, and following that impartial method should be the commitment of all of us, it seems to me. Our survival could possibly depend on such impartial analysis.

]]> By: futurewatcher64 http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2007/08/08/gw_deniers/comment-page-1/#comment-442 futurewatcher64 Thu, 06 Sep 2007 22:26:00 +0000 http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2007/08/08/gw_deniers/#comment-442 Ok, I am not in denial that we are seeing a warming trend here, but the cause is what is being disagreed over by so many scientists. So, far studies I have read and seen don't show that CO2 is the cause, and they don't show any change in atmosphere to be the cause(so far there has been little man-made change). In the end it is as my blog from yesterday said: The facts keep coming in from scientists all over the world, including those working in meteorology and at major universities. The message is clear and concise. There is no proof or even a hint of truth that there is any global warming happening at all. The real truth is there for anyone who wants to take a trip down science lane. I don't like to spend time educating people who don't want to know the truth about the so-called global warming issue. None the less, certain facts need to be presented that utterly destroy the words of those who claim global warming is going to be the worse thing ever, and it is happening now and it will get much worse. The real truth is nothing is happening at all to create an atmosphere change to cause global warming. Let's look at the center piece of the global warming issue, and talk about Carbon Dioxide or CO2. It does not cause global warming. It makes up only about .5 percent of the entire atmosphere. It does not have any affect at all on climate change. This is provable in many models. Let's talk about the time of the great industrial age. What about the worst years, the last 50-60 years when global C02 emissions have been at their highest? From 1940-1977 the charts show a dramatic DECREASE (every year for 4 decades) in over all temperature of this planet. In the late 1960s to 1970s this became such a fear, that we were all warned about an impending ice age from some not so scientific scientists (yet they were probably more scientific than what we are seeing spread as scientific fact today, that is NOT scientific fact at all). A hard fact: All the carbon dioxide produced by man, is so low that it makes up a number so small (.015%), that it is only barely registering in the upper atmosphere, and not that much at all even in the lower atmosphere (less than 10Km). The great ice age actually had much higher CO2, and yet the temperatures were so much colder. The hottest temperatures are not right now either like we have been told. The 1930s had even hotter temperatures (Remember the Dust Bowl days?). The lack of facts and the entire case for global warming just does not add up, and if you talk to most meteorologists, they will tell you the same things I have just stated. The temperatures in the upper atmosphere do not show warming at all, in fact the opposite, and only in some areas at ground level do we see any warming. This means if warming is taking place it is NOT coming from the atmosphere. All of this points to the Sun as the cause of the heat, and by far the most CO2 is coming from the oceans of this planet from the higher Sun heat. The Sun spot cycles have a whole lot to do with this, and their magnetic polar interference with the Sun will tell you when things are going to get hotter and when they will cool. Many test models have been done following the cycles of sun spots and there is more and more evidence that this is the TRUE source of the so-called global warming. It is not man-made, we have very little if anything to do with causing global warming. My sources are too numerous to mention, but I will mention a few to show I have actually done some research. I have no political agenda, I am just a person in the world living my life. I want happiness too! I just don't think global warming scares make life better. Stop being so dang paranoid everyone. The liberals out there want us afraid of our own shadow so they can manipulate us. I am not afraid of mine, are you? Sources: Prof. Tim Ball, University of Winnipeg, Prof. Nir Shaviv, University of Jerusalem institute of Physics, Prof. John Christie, winner American Meteorological Society achievment award. Ok, I am not in denial that we are seeing a warming trend here, but the cause is what is being disagreed over by so many scientists. So, far studies I have read and seen don't show that CO2 is the cause, and they don't show any change in atmosphere to be the cause(so far there has been little man-made change). In the end it is as my blog from yesterday said:

The facts keep coming in from scientists all over the world, including those working in meteorology and at major universities. The message is clear and concise. There is no proof or even a hint of truth that there is any global warming happening at all. The real truth is there for anyone who wants to take a trip down science lane. I don't like to spend time educating people who don't want to know the truth about the so-called global warming issue. None the less, certain facts need to be presented that utterly destroy the words of those who claim global warming is going to be the worse thing ever, and it is happening now and it will get much worse. The real truth is nothing is happening at all to create an atmosphere change to cause global warming.

Let's look at the center piece of the global warming issue, and talk about Carbon Dioxide or CO2. It does not cause global warming. It makes up only about .5 percent of the entire atmosphere. It does not have any affect at all on climate change. This is provable in many models. Let's talk about the time of the great industrial age. What about the worst years, the last 50-60 years when global C02 emissions have been at their highest? From 1940-1977 the charts show a dramatic DECREASE (every year for 4 decades) in over all temperature of this planet. In the late 1960s to 1970s this became such a fear, that we were all warned about an impending ice age from some not so scientific scientists (yet they were probably more scientific than what we are seeing spread as scientific fact today, that is NOT scientific fact at all).

A hard fact: All the carbon dioxide produced by man, is so low that it makes up a number so small (.015%), that it is only barely registering in the upper atmosphere, and not that much at all even in the lower atmosphere (less than 10Km). The great ice age actually had much higher CO2, and yet the temperatures were so much colder. The hottest temperatures are not right now either like we have been told. The 1930s had even hotter temperatures (Remember the Dust Bowl days?). The lack of facts and the entire case for global warming just does not add up, and if you talk to most meteorologists, they will tell you the same things I have just stated. The temperatures in the upper atmosphere do not show warming at all, in fact the opposite, and only in some areas at ground level do we see any warming. This means if warming is taking place it is NOT coming from the atmosphere. All of this points to the Sun as the cause of the heat, and by far the most CO2 is coming from the oceans of this planet from the higher Sun heat. The Sun spot cycles have a whole lot to do with this, and their magnetic polar interference with the Sun will tell you when things are going to get hotter and when they will cool. Many test models have been done following the cycles of sun spots and there is more and more evidence that this is the TRUE source of the so-called global warming. It is not man-made, we have very little if anything to do with causing global warming.

My sources are too numerous to mention, but I will mention a few to show I have actually done some research. I have no political agenda, I am just a person in the world living my life. I want happiness too! I just don't think global warming scares make life better. Stop being so dang paranoid everyone. The liberals out there want us afraid of our own shadow so they can manipulate us. I am not afraid of mine, are you?

Sources:
Prof. Tim Ball, University of Winnipeg,
Prof. Nir Shaviv, University of Jerusalem institute of Physics,
Prof. John Christie, winner American Meteorological Society achievment award.

]]> By: Sheryl Canter http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2007/08/08/gw_deniers/comment-page-1/#comment-441 Sheryl Canter Mon, 13 Aug 2007 22:54:08 +0000 http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2007/08/08/gw_deniers/#comment-441 <b>Sam I Am</b> - We don't delete the posts of people who disagree with us, as long as they disagree civilly. We only delete posts that are personally insulting, use inappropriate language, violate copyright laws, or hawk products. So far we've had hardly any of that, happily. Re your "It's the Sun" theory, please see our previous post, "<a href="http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2007/07/12/human_cause-5/" rel="nofollow">The Only Explanation Left</a>". It directly addresses this erroneous idea with hard data. <i>> The Scientific community is split just about down the middle on this.</i> That is simply wrong. What data do you have to support this silly statement? Deniers are a tiny (though loud) minority. You don't believe atmospheric scientists from Princeton, MIT, and virtually every other respected university in this country (not to mention other countries), members of the National Academies of Science, authors of studies commissioned by the U.S. government, and more? All these people say we're in big trouble. If you don't believe them, who do you believe? <b>Bob</b> - your comments remind me of a terrific presentation I saw at the YearlyKos convention by Drew Weston, author of "<a href="http://www.thepoliticalbrain.com/videos.php" rel="nofollow">The Political Brain</a>". Check it out. It's veeeeery interesting! <b>Buffy</b> - I don't know if you are a real kid or a poseur, but whichever... It's the young who should be most worried about global warming - they're the ones who will be alive in 2050 and suffering the effects if we don't do something now. I went to the Sea of Change demonstration in New York, and half the speakers were high school students. It was very inspiring. Sam I Am – We don't delete the posts of people who disagree with us, as long as they disagree civilly. We only delete posts that are personally insulting, use inappropriate language, violate copyright laws, or hawk products. So far we've had hardly any of that, happily.

Re your "It's the Sun" theory, please see our previous post, "The Only Explanation Left". It directly addresses this erroneous idea with hard data.

> The Scientific community is split just about down the middle on this.

That is simply wrong. What data do you have to support this silly statement? Deniers are a tiny (though loud) minority. You don't believe atmospheric scientists from Princeton, MIT, and virtually every other respected university in this country (not to mention other countries), members of the National Academies of Science, authors of studies commissioned by the U.S. government, and more? All these people say we're in big trouble. If you don't believe them, who do you believe?

Bob – your comments remind me of a terrific presentation I saw at the YearlyKos convention by Drew Weston, author of "The Political Brain". Check it out. It's veeeeery interesting!

Buffy – I don't know if you are a real kid or a poseur, but whichever… It's the young who should be most worried about global warming – they're the ones who will be alive in 2050 and suffering the effects if we don't do something now. I went to the Sea of Change demonstration in New York, and half the speakers were high school students. It was very inspiring.

]]> By: Buffy:VampireSlayer http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2007/08/08/gw_deniers/comment-page-1/#comment-440 Buffy:VampireSlayer Mon, 13 Aug 2007 17:56:31 +0000 http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2007/08/08/gw_deniers/#comment-440 Wow! You guys are so smart; I don't think I can like handle it! I'm just entering middle school, and I'm soo worried about global warming, but I'm even MORE worried about my vampire parents. They're like soooo denying like everything! OMG!! Can someone please like come and get them?? Isn't there like somewhere they can go to like learn the facts!?! IDK wat to like do with them!!! I cried like all night when I heard about the polar bear on that icecap thingy, it like tore my heart in two! I decided to start a club at my school for global warming, but I don't know what to call it! OMG how incredibly frustrating. Do you guys have any ideas? It would be like soooo helpful. I'm soo intense about this, that my ex-BFF, who is like a complete and total denier, I totally like shunned her, and my friends want to torch her. (Her name is Lucy.) My new gobal warming club is like THE popular group, and she is like a loser beyond repair! OMG!! My club has a secret handshake, and we even have like an initiation right! (did I spell that right??) My new BFF has even like set up an altar like thingy, an on it we have a totally awesome Al Gore bobblehead!! I didn't even know they had those!! OMG its like soooo cool. We're working on a worship prayer. it's really coming along! We're taking the names of the deniers in our school, and we want to know where we can like send them, like along with my weird and totally like bogus parents. Wow! You guys are so smart; I don't think I can like handle it! I'm just entering middle school, and I'm soo worried about global warming, but I'm even MORE worried about my vampire parents. They're like soooo denying like everything! OMG!! Can someone please like come and get them?? Isn't there like somewhere they can go to like learn the facts!?! IDK wat to like do with them!!! I cried like all night when I heard about the polar bear on that icecap thingy, it like tore my heart in two! I decided to start a club at my school for global warming, but I don't know what to call it! OMG how incredibly frustrating. Do you guys have any ideas? It would be like soooo helpful. I'm soo intense about this, that my ex-BFF, who is like a complete and total denier, I totally like shunned her, and my friends want to torch her. (Her name is Lucy.) My new gobal warming club is like THE popular group, and she is like a loser beyond repair! OMG!! My club has a secret handshake, and we even have like an initiation right! (did I spell that right??) My new BFF has even like set up an altar like thingy, an on it we have a totally awesome Al Gore bobblehead!! I didn't even know they had those!! OMG its like soooo cool. We're working on a worship prayer. it's really coming along! We're taking the names of the deniers in our school, and we want to know where we can like send them, like along with my weird and totally like bogus parents.

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